Heyo! After a week in sunny, humid Orlando weather…I’m back to living and loving the cold, dark Pacific Northwest weather. It’s good to be home!!!
I’ll finish my FinCon trip write up later and some other partially completed posts but I just can’t hold this particular mini-rant in —
⭐ “That’s Interesting!“
- Panhandling: How Much Money Do Panhandlers REALLY Make?
- How To Make Money As An Instagram Influencer (Internet Fame That Pays?)
- 39 People Who Got Richer AFTER Quitting Their Day Jobs
- Can Being a “Friend-For-Rent” Really Make Extra Money?
Storytime
So a few days after I came back from my FinCon / California vacation, one of my husband’s old college chums came up to Seattle for a visit. Hubby was housemates with a bunch of guys in college so they come up to visit every so often.
The guy (Jian) brought his beautiful wife and adorable toddler son with him and we all went out for some delicious Caribbean food in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle.
The catch-up conversation eventually landed on work which led to us skirting around the topic of early retirement.
(I don’t like telling people about retiring early because it’s just going to open up a ‘can of worm’ reactions. — “Wha- already?!” etc.)
To my surprise this time though, it was Jian who bought up his version of FIRE first.
I kept my mouth shut and pushed the topic on him. I showered him with a hundred questions because I didn’t want to answer questions on our super vague, haphazard plans.
I didn’t ask him if he knew the movement of FIRE idea even existed. Maybe.
He was just thinking about what’s logical for his family’s future after they’ve saved “enough” money. (FYI, his wife is currently a nurse.)
Jian wanted to do what I’m thinking about right now: deep life stuff.
He knows he wants to teach, bad.
And he isn’t fond of his current job as an industrial engineer. Jian has a career that requires a lot of traveling so he only sees his family for ⅓ of the year.
That factoid really made me sad! 🙁 I felt immediately more comfortable talking to them and relating to his desire to find FI. I find it very noble.
I wanted to encourage him because he is on a great path to retire by age 40. It sucks that he’s constantly away from his new baby boy but I think it’s cool he’s willing to give up his engineer career to teach and raise his son instead.
The pursuit of happiness without money as an objective; the absence of greed. Now that’s what I’m talking about! 🙂
~
Storytime 2
But here’s the flip story of Jian.
Jian brought up another housemates / good friend of my hubby’s named Ye.
I actually met Ye about 2 years ago when he came to visit my husband. Ye had finished his medical residency and was thinking about which city to relocate to for his blossoming career. As of right now, he is a successful doctor living and working in the Bay Area.
Set life right!?
Jian updated us and apparently Ye’s is experiencing a huge amount of unfulfillment with his new life as a doctor.
He’s finding his work and life so empty that he’s now cutting his workload and chosen to spend his time to get an MBA degree.
The consensus among us was – “more school?…does a newly minted medical doctor really need more school this soon?”
He doesn’t know who he is or what he wants because this determined fellow didn’t have the luxury of self-examination. Life was all about med school since he was in high school. Plus he was stuck in the deep south for his years of residency. Being an Asian minority, he didn’t exactly get the brightest social experiences there.
Ye also has very high expectations from his Dad who is a well-to-do real estate mogul in the Bay Area. Since Dad is paying for all of Ye’s schooling, financial independence is probably less than 10 years away for him especially considering he lives in one of his father’s buildings.
If it was me, I would dig down and take the doctor route. Then I would do some soul searching and pursue other things…instead of perpetually staying in school / remaining a student. The excuse is to beef up (an already robust) resume for more potential income but…I don’t think money is the issue here. He’s confused.
~
⭐ Recommended Reads:
- Top 14 Reasons Why Some People Don’t Save Money
- 13 Sensible Defining Characteristics Of Upper Middle Class People
Jian (and I too) came to the same conclusion:
This is a common thing that happens when your parents (or anyone other than “yourself”) places heavy input on what to do with your life. You get caught up in it because that’s what you’re “suppose” to do and just go through the motions.
Super strict parents mistakenly give their kids a lot of very artificial goal instead of challenging themselves to find their own path.
Don’t be surprised after doing everything OTHER people tell you to do just to look around and realize your OWN life’s more fruitless than you could have ever imagined.
Isn’t this a trope: someone has been in school their entire life come out of school totally confused. Since being a student is all they know, they end up going back for more qualifications and more degrees as a form of escape.
When hubby and I met up with Ye, he told us his main goal after med school was to make tons and tons of money so he can feel successful – and I have no doubt he is indeed!
But that one statement hinted to me immediately a deeper problem to come:
Money is a really, really bad PRIMARY goal because:
1. The net worth target always moves up because it’s never enough.
2. Past a certain point, it’s pretty irrelevant. How much does it have to cost to have comfortable necessities in the first world? Not much.
3. Majorly distracting from the real underlying problem at hand.
Throwing money$$$ at stuff solves a lot of problems but that internal scream of identity, fulfillment, and meaning…well that ain’t one that money can directly solve.
Ey, I’ve been through it so it’s extra real to me. I’m an extra, extra busybody when the situation is relatable to myself. 😉
I was fighting that internal scream for the past 3 years by myself. Only recently did I get my own memo. I feel for Ye. It’s a miserable place to be and I hope all of us are wrong about the situation instead. Honest to goodness I really reaaaally want Ye to find his fulfillment.
~
There’s really no universal answer on how to live a fulfilling life. I’m pretty happy I found and started appreciating my oddities enough to create a plan for myself.
Jian thinks having a good wife and having some kids will bring meaning (Ye is single) considering Jian has his own pretty wife and son…Jian is definitely biased. 🙂
Being Asian and find fulfilment…well, it’s a little harder. Traditionally, Asian parents (old school ones like mine) don’t encourage or value “fulfillment” whatsoever. You’re supposed to go to school, become a successful doctor/lawyer/engineer/scientist, and while you’re doing that find a spouse and have some kids too.
The path isn’t very creative so in my soft rebellious way, I always encourage people to find / experiment / reflect on deeper life meanings when they start seeing a semblance of financial independence.
Yes, naturally, I’m biased too. It’s no secret that Jian has my total support. I disagree with how Ye is approaching fulfillment, hiding behind more schooling and bidding his time. I don’t think doing an MBA is going to bring him what he truly seeks.
Ye will come to see that out some time later. Jian and hubby agree with me on those fronts. It’s one of those journeys Ye has to discover on his own accord.
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Wow, very interesting to hear about family expectations from your cultural perspective. Best of luck to your friend Jian, and it was great meeting you in Orlando!
So nice to put a face to the honorable “AF” name
Yes, Dave it was great to meet you at FinCon in Orlando and put a name to a face. My sister actually got an MBA and I do not think it truly brought her what she was seeking as you stated in your post above about MBA’s as well. I have learned the doing is the thing. I learned more about writing and blogging by doing the work than I ever did about reading about blogging.
Nice post!
-Miriam
Ye sounds like a potential bachelor for any Asian girls and their family: a great career and family background. Too bad he’s not happy with his career choice. Good thing he doesn’t have med school debt. I’ve heard stories of lawyers and doctors who incurred hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and realized they don’t want to be doctors and lawyers anymore. Sigh.
So happy to see your new post. Welcome back to Seattle and the blog! 😉
I know that’s what I said! He’s getting set up left and right by his dad. Lots of girls over seas would be up for a shot but I think he likes American girls and much less anything to do with what his dad recommends/sets up again.
Ye probably will have to take it like a man and live an unhappy life. Lots of people do that and it’s okay. Of course, he could surprise everyone. Maybe he should take a year off and go travel. It’ll give him a chance to figure things out.
Everyone has to find their own happiness.
Same here. I really think he needs a year off to soul search, not year off for another degree!
It is definitely clear that Jian should pursue FI so he can spend time with his family. I can’t imagine what life would be like if i only saw my family for 1/3 of the year 🙁
Ye’s situation is a different story. It’s not so clear. It does make sense for Ye to stick with medicine like you mentioned. However, if he doesn’t feel fulfilled with his current career in medicine then he should pursue a different path. Unfortunately, leaving medicine is a dilemma with a huge sunk cost fallacy with regard to money and time. But at least he doesn’t have medical school debt to worry about.
I think Ye should pursue his MBA. Perhaps Ye’s personality is better suited to business and entrepreneurship. In traditional medicine, it’s hard to be a good doctor and a good businessman/entrepreneur at the same time. If he wants to make a lot of moneyI think the business route is better with potential for more growth. And he may even be able to use both his M.D. degree AND his MBA degree to become a hospital business administrator. That’s where the big bucks are 😉
Oh yeah I didn’t think of it like that. He is definitely creative, I think MBA would have been better for his personality. He is a good business person – hmm very interesting perspective.
I didn’t know hospital business admins make the big bucks!! Ahh that could be why he’s getting the MBA because he is $ oriented for now. Thanks for shedding more light on this Doc!!!
i remember having all kinds of suggestions for what to do in my younger life. some were good and some not so good. i feel lucky to have taken my own path and saying no to financial help after age 20 or so. it’s a harder route but 30 years later you look back and say “this might have been a roller coaster ride with plenty of ups and downs, but i truly owned my life.”
i really feel for anybody being pushed too hard in one direction, especially if they don’t push back.
Yes I agree, by junior year of college I knew what I was majoring in was a mistake but it was “too late” to change my career path after landing sector specific internships. Looking back I wish I did and took my own path instead. Of course it’s going to cost so much money / sunk cost going back too.
Wait, you were at FinCon and we didn’t meet up? That’s super disappointing… FinCon 19?
Yeah what happened?! I even met Physician on FIRE but not you!!
Hey Lily!! Love this article. Shows how much growth you’ve gone through these past years. Your process of reflection and discretion has made you a great supportive friend for Hippos ex-roommates. Good job!
I really resonated with the bit about parental pressure. Though my parents are American in their ideals, my in-laws are full Chinese. I actually get a lot more of the pressure from my in-laws. It ranges from offering to provide housing for us to encouraging me to be a famous professor at famous University. Overall, I can take it because I’ve gone through similar reflections as you have and because my family of origin emphasized ‘finding yourself’ as a life milestone. –and so I appreciate your article a lot.
Cheers! Can’t wait to hear about your fincon journey and what you think about the current market volatility!!
Thanks Lindsey ^^ I didn’t know the market was volatile until it stopped being volatile LOL! I didn’t keep great track because I was busy lolol.
“It ranges from offering to provide housing for us to encouraging me to be a famous professor at famous University.”
Seriously preaching to the choir!! It’s like you know they love you but they’re rude at the same time LOL.
I think Jian’s got the right idea. If he’s FI, there’s no stopping him. When the foundations are good, not having the courage and continuing to live a life of unfulfillment is a sad thing indeed.
As for Ye, I’d have to agree with you. Having no direction is such a debilitating thing, a doctor’s salary gives you a good start point while you explore things in your off time. But if he’s already set because of his father, maybe he can just ditch being a doctor straight away if he’s that sure about it.
Also, instead of getting an MBA why doesn’t he just accompany his Dad? From my personal experience, hands on experience under mentorship from people such as Ye’s father has been worth more than I would ever learned at university. Especially the Chinese business 关系 dynamic; book learning in my own time was just supplemental.
Totally get the Asian parenting stuff, lucky my parents aren’t like that, but my grandparents and relatives are. Stifles a lot of imagination, especially at a young age.
Asian algorithm:
Birth -> Study -> Good grades -> Good university -> Good job -> Work -> Make money -> Buy house + car -> Find good spouse -> Kids -> Die -> Profit???
Haha, funny thing is I’m going in the opposite direction. I made my fortune in biotech/pharmaceutical and entrepreneurial pursuits in Africa/Asia. Now I’ve got the financials down I’m doing the medical route.
Just shows how lucky we all are. Being a slave to the wage and not finding life fulfilling is awfully depressing.
Hope both of them find what they’re looking for and looking forward to seeing how your own pursuit of happiness develops.
A+ on your Asian algorithm Will. Lol “profit???” so depressing!!
“Also, instead of getting an MBA why doesn’t he just accompany his Dad?”
Yeah good question, there is no way Ye is going to. He’s a very proud person and he doesn’t get along with his dad in that way. It’s always been *I’ve built mine, you gotta do yours.” It’s definitely out of the question to coattail on his dad even though he’s the only son.
What a great article! I’m so tiger mom brain washed and traditional that it’s good to hear refreshing perspectives.
Thankfully I’m still open to different views too. For me happiness and stability is a balancing act yet in a way stability is what makes me happy at the same time ?
I got the tiger mom thing too!! Trying my best to lock it away and starve it.
First can I just say that food looks so good? ?
I would have to agree that more school doesn’t seem like the best answer, but I can also understand that after so many years following that traditional path it would be hard to see another option. I’ve had more than one friend go after degree after degree searching for their true calling and not finding it.
Un Bien in Seattle, it was pretty good. Paseo is still better 😉
It’s crazy how much parents influence your choices. It takes some time and some hard thinking to figure out what it is you yourself want. I imagine this would be really hard while receiving financial support from one of the parents (like Ye in the story). I will say though, as a person who transitioned from being a student to working in academia, some people really love school 🙂
Yes that’s very true! My professors and some PhDs I worked with loved their gig (esp with tenure hahah)
I think Ye will go through the process of more schooling since it sounds like his current state of mind is more schooling=more fulfillment. If he realizes that more schooling isn’t fulfilling his needs after a year or two I believe that he will do some reflections/soul searching and find something he really wants to set out and do. Whether it’s continuing being a doctor, travel, or another career path, I think he will figure it out on his own. Seems like he’s pretty definitive on his goals.
Love his ambition and a MBA wouldn’t hurt his chance for making more money! Not sure if fulfillment is about money, we’ll see how this plays out.
Disappointed we didn’t get to connect at Fin Con!
Sometimes the key to falling back love with medicine is doing less of it, although that only works if you enjoyed it in the first place. I feel for Ye. He’s far from the first kid with old school parents who forced him to live their dreams.
Hopefully you rub off on your friends so they can find their purpose and pivot from careers that deplete them in time to enjoy life.
Fondly,
CD
I’m too shy and chicken to ever hammer on someone’s life in front of them 🙂 but I can lead by example 🙂 I didn’t know you were at Fincon!!
Interesting dichotomy to be sure. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with trying to find fulfillment, but it sounds like Ye may just be hiding in school rather than trying to figure out what he wants. But hopefully he does find fulfillment working in business. It’s gotta be easier than being a doctor!
Long hours and part customer service! Definitely hard!!
There is definitely no answer on how to live a fulfilling life. And what makes you feel fulfilled at one point in your life, may change in the future.
I hope Ye finds his path:)
Same! 🙂
An example of how money does not necessarily lead to more happiness. Add in there parental and cultural expectations (being Asian myself, I totally get this), and I can see how it would lead to some soul searching as to what makes you truly happy. In this case, he has the financial freedom to choose a different route- had he taken on a significant amount of debt, I wonder if he would be as quick to leave medicine or if he would’ve resonated with FIRE blogs that aim make the most of your income?
I think he might! When Jian retires early, Ye might just follow since they’re good friends. He’ll see the light then!
Your post spoke to me. As you know I had a lot of cultural pressures as well. Being Indian is very similar with the same doctor/lawyer/engineer mantra as well as cultural pressure to marry in your race (as you know I fell for that and it turned out to be one of the biggest mistakes in my life).
I do know of people who are the perpetual student and the point you made is valid that they don’t know any other life and have been pressured to go into something that may have not fulfilled them so they keep trying to stay in training
Ohhh yes I think it’s even more persuasive in Indian culture to be “perfect.” They make you tie ego and respect to it, terrible pressure. Chinese and Korean culture does it a lot too. I think Japan is probably one of the least strict (but still strict)
Great article, Lily, but I was so distracted by your photos from Paseo that I couldn’t concentrate. 🙂
Close 😀 it was Un Bien in Seattle. I don’t think it’s as good as Paseo though, I’d stick with Paseo xD
I always move my targets. I meet one goal and then I set another one. It’s a great way to stay motivated and get things done. You need something to aim at. Something to shoot for. I say shoot for the stars. I like to save until it hurts! I set high savings goals so that I have to earn more or spend less to meet them.
Thanks, Miriam